The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time Transcript

[00:00]

Welcome to the Cartridge Archive, the show dedicated to chronicling the complete Nintendo 64
library, one cartridge at a time. I’m Adam. And I’m Jamie. In each episode, we pull another game
from the shelf and explore its impact on the Nintendo 64’s history.

[00:30]

From beloved classics and hidden gems to forgotten curiosities and infamous disasters, no cartridge
is left behind. Along the way, we’ll examine each game’s story, development, legacy, collector
value, and the impact it left on the Nintendo 64 library as a whole. And then we will put it through
the rigorous and totally patented 64-point inspection to determine whether or not it has what it
takes to become Certified 64. So prestigious.

[01:00]

Indeed. So this is a huge one. We’ve gotten millions of requests, literally maybe tens of millions
of requests. Probably not, but I’m sure this is a game that when you say you’re doing something N64
related, people are going to want to know about Ocarina of Time. And it just happens that the
modernized remake is coming out the same week as this episode is releasing, if you are listening to
it upon release.

[01:30]

So this is a huge one. Yeah, yesterday, theoretically yesterday, if you’re listening to this, the
second the episode drops. And if you’re one of the millions of people that have requested this game,
then, you know, you probably are. So, yeah, we record this a little bit earlier and out of order and
all of that. So I think we are in full on Zelda fever right now, eagerly anticipating the release of
the game that will have already released by the time this episode comes out.

[02:00]

Yeah, by the time you’re listening to this, I likely am already playing the new one. And I’m really
excited, current me, to be doing so then and contemporary to when this comes out, hopefully enjoying
it quite a bit. And I think it’s probably safe to say that I will be. You need to start referring to
yourself as adult Adam and young Adam because your Ocarina of Time play sessions in the future and
in the past, I think you need to start doing that. Oh, man, that’s that’s actually pretty, pretty
smart.

[02:30]

Someone should try that in like a game or something where you maybe like play a song on like some
sort of like a little flute thing or something. A little flute thing that nobody had ever heard of
before this game comes out. You can there’s some people that pretend that have known what an Ocarina
was before this game came out, but they are lying to you. Nobody did. Oh, this game absolutely put
the Ocarina on the map. It did. Ocarina, Ocarina, Ocarina, Okra stock went way, way up after this
game came out for sure.

[03:00]

Big time, big time. So actually, what are what is some of your your history with this game? Was this
game that you played a ton back in the day or is this one that you you came to later or? I was I was
there on day one for this. I was completely immersed in it. This was the game where you would go to
school. I believe it was middle school for me. And all you would talk about was where you were in
the game, what you were trying to figure out, how far, what dungeon you were in. And while the
playtime for this game is not really all that long in my mind, I was playing this and living this
game for months.

[03:30]

So either I just have a fragmented memory of how that all went out. But this game was an obsession
for me and my friends for for for quite a while when it released. This was actually the first Zelda
game I ever played. I had watched others play the Super Nintendo version, but I’d never owned it.
And my my good friend, Eric, who will eventually be on this podcast, he was very excited about this
game. And he told me about the preorder that gets you the gold cartridge. And I’d never preordered a
game before.

[04:00]

I’d never really had the reason for it. I was always a go get the game on the day it came out kind
of guy. And I’d never had any issues finding a game. It wasn’t a case that I’d get there and they’d
all be sold out or anything like that. So it was never really a factor. But I wanted that gold
version and he was going with his mom to reserve it one day. And I tagged along, put down my five
dollars or whatever it was at EB Games in the mall. And yeah, that was that was the beginning of my
Zelda fandom. And I think I’ve played every game since then, with the exception of like one or two
of the DS ones or 3DS ones.

[04:30]

And I have not played the Tears of the Kingdom, the most recent version game either. Oh, my
goodness. And we do promise Eric will be on the show. I know we’ve been saying that like three
episodes in a row. So people are like, where’s this guy? We promise he will be on the show. He
doesn’t exist. I made him up. I had no friends. I was just playing this lonely in middle school.
That’s like that ocarina, that weird urban legend about the guy where he’s like his son died or
something.

[05:00]

And his spirit like is in the game. And there’s like this weird ROM hack that has some of that stuff
in it. Anyway, it’s exactly like that. I was a little different on this one. I actually had a really
good friend in middle school, Michael, who spent a ton of time at his house. And he had it and he
played it a ton, but I largely did not. So I was around when it was played a great deal. But I
myself did not really spend that much time with it. So I had a lot of exposure to the game.

[05:30]

But I myself did not really play it a whole lot until a little bit later. Interesting. OK, so I do
remember that deep immersion that you’re talking about, like feeling like it was constantly around.
But it wasn’t something that I really got as much hands on with until later. Because it was kind of
just it’s his game. He’s playing it. He’s you know, I don’t need to jump in and take over. And so he
played it a ton, but I did not play it quite as much. And now, much like Juan in the episode one
racer, I now have to tell Michael that I talked about him on the show and get us another listener.

[06:00]

Yes, yes. Got to get those shout outs in there. OK, cool. So this is interesting. We hopefully will
have a little bit of a different take or a different perspective on this game, looking back at it
now, amongst the fervor that’s associated with a re-release. So this will be cool. I’m looking
forward to chatting about this one. With that being said, do you want to jump into the history
lesson? Let’s kick it off. Anytime Nintendo prepares to bring a new Zelda game to the market,
there’s a certain amount of excitement about what new things players can expect.

[06:30]

But there’s also a sense of familiarity. Bringing Zelda into three dimensions for the first time
meant Nintendo had an entirely new set of tools and challenges in front of them. Initial development
on The Legend of Zelda Ocarina of Time began in 1994 alongside Super Mario 64, with the two games
even running on the same engine. Early on, the game was planned as a 64DD title to take advantage of
the disk drive peripheral’s additional storage capacity and persistent storage features.

[07:00]

But as the device-based delays, Nintendo ultimately committed to releasing Ocarina of Time as a
standard cartridge title. During development, producer Shigeru Miyamoto considered structuring the
game around a central hub, with Link teleporting to different areas through portals, similar to
jumping through paintings in Mario 64. But eventually decided on the open-world traversal approach
used in the finished product. And other similar innovations continued to evolve during the game’s
development. Under Miyamoto’s supervision, the game’s five directors also experimented with ideas
for things like combat mechanics, camera control, cinematic sequences, and the game’s dynamic day-
night cycle.

[07:30]

These experiments elevated the project from a simple translation of the familiar Zelda formula into
three dimensions to a fully reimagined version of Link’s adventures within Hyrule. Similar to
previous games in the series, Hyrule would exist as a place players could explore somewhat freely
compared to the level-based progression found in most games. But expanding Hyrule to a 360-degree
environment proved to be far more complicated than moving one screen at a time like past games.

[08:00]

The developers wanted Hyrule to feel more believable, ultimately leading to the creation of Hyrule
Field, a large open area that connected the kingdom’s forests, mountains, rivers, towns, and
deserts, while the day-night cycle made the world even more immersive, featuring tougher enemies
that emerged at night, shops that closed after dark, and characters that may appear in different
places or do different things depending on the time of day. Also, in previous entries, players could
easily see everything around them all at once, but in 3D, they were limited to the camera’s field of
view,

[08:30]

so keeping an opponent in view while attacking could become frustrating or disorienting. Nintendo’s
solution was dubbed Z-targeting. Using the Z-button on an enemy, character, or object would lock
Link’s aim, allowing him to strafe, dodge, block, interact, or attack without worry of the camera
losing focus. The mechanic was even woven into the game’s lore. Navi, Link’s fairy companion, flies
near objects, helping him identify targets and serving as a visual indicator for the player.

[09:00]

In modern games, reliable 3D combat and camera control are basically taken for granted, but for
1998, it was still very much a work in progress. And combat and exploration weren’t the only parts
of the game that evolved with the move to 3D. The team at Nintendo EAD also wanted to take
storytelling to an entirely new level. In the game, after retrieving the Master Sword as a child,
Link awakens seven years in the future as an adult, transforming not only the character, but the
world around him. Places that had once been busy and cheerful were now dangerous or abandoned,

[09:30]

while characters that had inhabited those places had also grown older, changed, or in some cases
disappeared. This allowed the world to exist in more than one timeline, giving even greater depth to
the game’s story. The ability to jump between timelines also created opportunities to expand the
game’s puzzles and exploration mechanics. Young Link could crawl through small openings and use
items like the slingshot or boomerang, while the Elder Link had access to different equipment,
including the bow and the hookshot, and could travel by horse.

[10:00]

And the one item that changed everything was the game’s titular instrument, the ocarina. Acquired
early in the game, the ocarina is played using various sequences of buttons on the Nintendo 64’s
controller, using short melodies to solve puzzles, change the time of day, or fast travel, among
other things. In total, the game featured 13 ocarina songs, but the ocarina wasn’t just a simple
item with a single purpose, like most things found in previous Zelda games. It was a multifaceted
tool that could be used to solve puzzles, summon Link’s horse,

[10:30]

navigate various dungeons and temples, and even get hints about what to do next. Legendary Nintendo
composer Koji Kondo, best known for his work on previous Zelda and Super Mario games, also returned
to create the soundtrack. But this time, music wasn’t just there to set the mood. It became a part
of how players interacted with the world, often using just a few notes to kick off each tune. Though
they were short, many of the ocarina songs have remained iconic pieces of video game music for
decades after the game’s release.

[11:00]

But all of these innovations and advancements didn’t come easy. Over the course of the game’s nearly
four-year development, the team grew from just two members during the planning stages, to around
120, including five directors at completion, making it the largest team ever assembled up to that
point in Nintendo’s history. The game also shipped on a 256-megabit, or 32-megabyte, cartridge, also
the largest produced by Nintendo at that time. Nintendo had also spent years promoting the game,
having initially shown it alongside Super Mario 64 in late 1995.

[11:30]

Mario’s transition to 3D had been a success in 1996, so the expectations for Zelda were enormous.
The Legend of Zelda Ocarina of Time was released in Japan and North America in November of 1998,
followed by Europe and Australia a few weeks later. And not only did the game live up to the
expectations, it completely blew them away. Reviews were overwhelmingly positive, with critics
praising the combat, puzzles, music, and cinematic presentation. Ocarina of Time received perfect
scores from dozens of major publications,

[12:00]

several Game of the Year awards, and became recognized not just as a defining title for the Nintendo
64, but ultimately one of the greatest games of all time. And that positive reception was made even
more clear by the game’s sales. The game was one of the biggest sellers of 1998, reaching nearly 3.5
million copies sold, despite releasing only 39 days before the end of the year. Ocarina of Time
would ultimately go on to sell 7.6 million copies worldwide on the Nintendo 64,

[12:30]

making it one of the console’s best-selling games, second only to Super Mario 64. And perhaps more
importantly, it’s recognized among the earliest games to feature lock-on targeting, context-
sensitive buttons, and cinematic story sequences, which influenced the entire gaming industry, with
those features appearing in countless games in the years since. Nintendo would build directly on
Ocarina’s successes, with the release of The Legend of Zelda Majora’s Mask in the year 2000, reusing
many of the same mechanics while introducing new features, like a non-linear story structure and an
even more impactful day-night cycle.

[13:00]

And even Ocarina itself would be revisited, appearing on the GameCube, Wii, Wii U, and Switch as
virtual console and Nintendo Switch Online titles. And it also received a full, stereoscopic 3D
remake for the 3DS in 2011, which also sold nearly 6.5 million copies, further solidifying the
game’s legacy. The game also saw a fully modernized remake released for the Switch 2 in November of
2026. Nearly 30 years later, The Legend of Zelda Ocarina of Time

[13:30]

is widely considered to be one of the best games ever made, still holding the single highest score
for any game ever on Metacritic as of October 2026. But does Ocarina of Time stand the test of time?
Hey, listen! It’s time for the 64-point inspection. Today, on the Cartridge Archive, The Legend of
Zelda Ocarina of Time. All right. On to the back-of-the-box quote. Ganondorf, the evil king of
thieves, is on the move,

[14:00]

threatening the peaceful land of Hyrule. He is determined to steal his way to the legendary Sacred
Realm in hopes of harnessing the power of the mythical Triforce. As the young hero Link, it is your
destiny to thwart Ganondorf’s evil schemes. Navi, your guardian fairy, will guide you as you venture
through the many regions of Hyrule, from the volcanic caves of Death Mountain to the treacherous
waters of Zora’s Domain. Before you complete this epic quest, you’ll delve into deadly dungeons,

[14:30]

collect weapons of great power, and learn the spells you need to conquer the most irresistible force
of all time. The immersive story and environments draw players into an amazing 3D world. And I do
want to point out that environments is actually misspelled on the original box. That’s not me not
knowing how to read, though that is absolutely a situation. Time travel allows you to play as Link
in different stages of his life.

[15:00]

New gameplay features include a unique targeting system and first- and third-person perspectives. Up
to three games can be saved simultaneously to memory. Yeah, I was going to mention that, that his
mispronouncing environments was intentional. It’s spelled in-in-iviraments, E-N-I-V-I, and that is
on the box. On the original, first-pressing version of the game, it is misspelled, and it is
something that they corrected in subsequent releases.

[15:30]

But if you do happen to have one of those first runs, it is actually genuinely misspelled. So I’m
not, we are both kind of dumb, but that was not why it was mispronounced. Yeah, my version would
have had this misspelling on it because I had one of the first pressings of this game, and we’ll get
into what that means in the game as well, because there were quite a few corrections and revisions
that were released on this game, which I actually find fascinating. But one thing that I do enjoy is
that they didn’t lean into their ye olde marketing that they did when this game first came out

[16:00]

on the promotional messaging on the back of the box. They did, I don’t know if you remember this,
but they did a commercial where it said, gather thy courage, willest thou flee? And then it would
show footage of the game, and then it would say, willest thou sink? Or willest thou swim? And then
it would show footage of Link swimming, and all this kind of stuff. And I thought that was really
weird because having not been a fan of Zelda games before, it kind of paints the picture that this
is some sort of

[16:30]

like Renaissance Faire-esque kind of throwback fantasy game. And while obviously it is a fantasy
game, it does not lean into the whole Knights of the Round kind of vibe that that marketing would
imply. Yeah, not at all. One thing that is interesting, though, is that apparently for the new game
that came out yesterday, they are mimicking that commercial, and they’re using the same willest thou
flee taglines in the commercial to kind of replicate the original marketing, which I do think now
looking back on it is cool. But at the time, I remember thinking,

[17:00]

well, this is fucking dumb. Why are you talking to me? Why are thou talking to me like this? Because
it really did not tie to the game in any meaningful way, in my opinion. Yeah, and it really kind of
stuck to fairly plain language for the most part, and previous games did, and most of them since
have. It’s a really odd stylistic choice. Some marketing guy in Nintendo’s marketing department
probably just had a greatest idea. I’m not entirely sure. But either way, let’s take a look at this
game

[17:30]

and jump in on the 64-point inspection, hold up a lens of truth to this title, and see how it fares.
Adam, can you please take us away? You got it. It’s time for the 64-point inspection. This is a
carefully crafted evaluation designed to judge every Nintendo 64 game through a series of 10 tests.
For each test, we’ll present the evidence, make our case, and put it to a vote. If the game passes
the test, it earns 10 points. If it fails, it earns none. If opinions are split, points will be
divided evenly.

[18:00]

Any game that earns 64 or more points passes the inspection and receives our coveted Certified 64
Seal of Approval. And with that out of the way, let’s start the inspection. Test number one, the
memory pack test. I’m sure there was something. Ah, yes, now I remember. Is this game still
remembered, or has it faded into obscurity? Would the average gamer recognize it today? Well, I
mean, the easy answer is,

[18:30]

of course, there’s no debate. We should just give this game 10 points. But what I want to actually
comment on is how much of this game I’d actually forgotten that had fallen off of my mental memory
pack. Like I said at the beginning, I remember this game being completely immersive, and the only
thing that we were talking about and being obsessed with it. And while I haven’t gone back and
replayed it multiple times since then, it was born into my memory in a way where I just did not
think I was going to forget much about this.

[19:00]

But I recently replayed the game, top to bottom, for this podcast. And there were some things that I
completely forgot about. So I prepared a little list for you of some of the things that are in this
game that I honestly, as I was playing it recently, and I was like, what the hell is this? I have no
memory of this whatsoever. So the first one, the hover boots. I do not remember getting hover boots
in this game. And when I encountered them, I was like, honestly, I don’t even remember any puzzles
that use these things. I remember that there were

[19:30]

three different types of boots because obviously the steel boots are a big thing and there was that
little menu. But guns ahead, I would have never been able to tell you that it was hover boots as the
third one. I completely forgot about those. Big Goron, the giant five-story Goron rock man that
lives at the top of the mountain. He pops up when I get up there. I was like, what the fuck? This
mountain’s alive. I honestly had no memory of this whatsoever. And he’s like a key character in a
final quest to get the biggest sword that you can get, the Big Goron sword. And yeah, it was zero
memory.

[20:00]

The only thing I remember about that is that it was written as one word. It was always so weird to
me that it said Big Goron is one word. Otherwise, I would have completely forgotten about it. Yes,
so Big Goron is on my list, which I definitely did not remember him. And I genuinely was taken aback
when I got up there. I also do not remember the giant bulldog motherfuckers who stop you from being
able to get into the forest temple at the beginning where they’re basically indestructible giant
bulldogs that are nine feet tall and are never seen in the game ever again.

[20:30]

Apparently, they’re loyal followers of Ganondorf. I don’t know why he didn’t just post them outside
of the princess’s castle. Because the game would have been impossible to beat. I also didn’t
remember that the Happy Mask shop and that creepy Happy Mask guy was in this game before Majora’s
Mask. I know a lot of the characters were repurposed for Majora’s Mask. And that’s a big part of the
mysticism and the story behind that dreamlike game. But legit, there’s a Happy Mask store in the
middle of town. And I had no idea. I did not remember this at all.

[21:00]

And I played the game through. And I do remember getting the mask that you get at the end of that
mission. But no, that was not on my list either. So that was a fun replay. And then also the final
showdown with Ganondorf and going through his castle and how you have to do power down sessions in
this weird skeletor-looking textured tower. I don’t remember any of that either. Oh, and also how
giant the owl is. The owl that you meet up with

[21:30]

that gives you advice. His name is Kapora Gaborra, which for the record, he never says his name in
the game. That’s just, you just have to know that or read the instruction manual, apparently. He’s
freaking huge. There’s a couple of cut scenes where you can see him compared to Link. And the guy is
the size of a bus. So I didn’t remember that. So anyway, I was 14. Oh, you know, I like a good bus
too if you listen to the Resident Evil episode. Oh yeah, buses come back, yes. We didn’t make
t-shirts from the Partridge Archive. It just featured buses from various games. Huge bus fans. Bus,
pass, 10 points.

[22:00]

Yeah, you know, that test of can you pet the dog is the big thing for all video games. Does this
game feature a bus of some sort? And can you get in bus? Can you ride bus? Are there buses? I mean,
I was 14 when this game came out. So, you know, and I maybe played it twice. You know, I beat it all
the way through, got everything. And then I probably played it again. But I don’t think I ever
really jumped back in again on it. I loved it. I relished it. I was all in, but I didn’t repeat. So
I remember remembering

[22:30]

so much of this and some of the lines I would have been able to quote to you as I was playing it
through. But then also big things like this. I just, big allure on things like this. I just
completely had no memory of. So it was enjoyable going back to play this game for many reasons, but
also to realize how poor my memory actually is. That’s totally fair. I’m going to agree. Honestly,
it’s one of the most beloved games of all time, often recognized by people who didn’t even
necessarily play it back then. Absolutely legendary title. Many, many more things to say about it

[23:00]

in subsequent tests. And of course, there’s been some renewed interest around the remake for Switch
2. Very well remembered. Easy pass. All right, moving on. Test number two, the Rumble Pack test.
This is the Rumble Pack. The coolest cinematic gaming experience there is. Does this game really
take advantage of what made the Nintendo 64 unique? Four-player multiplayer, analog controls,
accessories, and other N64 signature features.

[23:30]

So this game does not utilize all of the features of the Nintendo 64, but it is a quintessential N64
game. And the features that it does use, it uses well. It even says on the back of the box, you’re
able to save three save files without needing to use a memory pack. So I think that’s a plus there.
And it does use the Rumble Pack. In fact, it uses the Rumble Pack in a really interesting way where
you actually get a Rumble Pack in the game. They call it like a spirit stone or something like that.
And it’s like a stone that’s carved to look like a Rumble Pack,

[24:00]

which I think is cool, kind of meta. But yeah, you get that and it’ll vibrate if you have a
controller with a Rumble Pack plugged into it when you’re in an area where you can dig or find a
hidden object or there’s a golden skulltula nearby or something like that. Skulltula, sorry, nearby.
So I think it’s a pass for that. I would also say that the fact that this game came in a gold
cartridge, while it doesn’t necessarily take advantage of a Nintendo 64 feature, it is a Nintendo-
ass throwback to the original NES cartridge,

[24:30]

which I think it’s definitely taking advantage of in a marketing capacity, if anything. So I’m going
to give it a pass for that. I think I’m going to agree with you. I was a little on the fence a bit
with this one, but I think that does make sense. And I guess in the time, like you said, it predated
the expansion pack. It made, you know, use of not needing necessarily a controller pack. So you
can’t be like, well, it came out too early. It’s still one of the most recognizable and most just
absolutely loved

[25:00]

and respected games of all time. So did it make the N64 unique? Maybe not, but it was of absolutely
massive note to the N64. The N64 wouldn’t have the legacy it does without this game. So though it
didn’t take advantage of every single feature, every feature wasn’t offered at the time. And of
course, like you said, it doesn’t, there’s never really been much of a multiplayer Zelda game, but
it’s really hard to say anything negative about this game. So it, it, it has to be a pass. Yeah. I
mean, looking back at it now,

[25:30]

knowing all of the features that eventually came to the Nintendo 64, you, we can, we can look at it
and kind of judge it in this category, but there isn’t really a need for any of these other
features. And I think as long as the game utilizes a feature in a meaningful way, then I think that
that’s fodder for it to, to get the points depending on the game, of course, but I, I’m not able to
deduct points from this one for that reason. Yeah. And if it had come out later in the life cycle,
there’s nothing to say that it wouldn’t have taken advantage of an expansion pack.

[26:00]

Had there been one, you can’t fault it for something that didn’t exist at the time, but you can
absolutely give it credit for what it did do. Yeah. And while it wasn’t necessarily signature
Nintendo 64 features, this was, as you mentioned, absolutely a signature Nintendo 64 feature in and
of itself. And it was the only place to play this game. And that was a, that moved a lot of, of, of
systems. So yeah, I think I’m, I’m pretty confident in my pass on this one and I’m pretty confident
in yours as well. Thanks. All right, moving on. Test number three,

[26:30]

the expansion pack test. That is one powerful piece of machinery. Does this game deserve an
expansion, sequel, remake, or modern successor? Was there enough here to justify a future beyond the
original cartridge? I think this one speaks for itself. There have been 15, I counted, mainline
Zelda titles since Ocarina came out. That does not include 3DS or Switch remakes

[27:00]

of Ocarina, which of course it has received. The Switch remake of Link’s Awakening or the spinoffs
like Hyrule Warriors, Link’s Crossbow Training or the Cadence of Hyrule Rhythm Game or the Twilight
Princess Picross game, which a lot of people probably don’t remember from one of the DS platforms. I
love Picross. It’s the fucking best. But this game came as part of a legacy that had been
established and it only further solidified the legacy that has continued from it. It’s gotten plenty
of sequels, plenty of spinoffs,

[27:30]

and they’ve mostly been good. And there’s basically a guaranteed that there would be more and there
will be. So that’s a pass. Yeah, this game is like Resident Evil 2 in the episode we did prior,
influential to a crazy degree in its own franchise as well. According to the Zelda lore heads and
the canon, this is the branching point for a lot of the mainline Zelda timelines. A lot of the
features, elements, proper nouns that are featured in this game show up again

[28:00]

in future versions of Hyrule and this game really establishes so much that becomes Zelda. A lot of
games have spun things off in different directions, whether it be Picross or Crossbow Training or
one of the more modern games that involves exploration and running around and really trying things
in a different way with a less linear approach like the Tears of the Kingdom and Breath of the Wild
games. This game is the definition of the Zelda franchise and all of the games that came out
thereafter were heavily influenced by it.

[28:30]

I will say that the 3DS or the DS port did improve on a couple of things like the Iron Boots, for
example, are now an equippable item so you don’t have to go into the menu to toggle on your worn
items and things like that. But mostly it is core game and Nintendo 64 version is the quintessential
version of this game. Obviously it has been ported and you can play it in different capacities now,
but this game absolutely deserves everything that came after it as far as expanding the lore and
building on the franchise

[29:00]

from here. So for me, that would absolutely be a pass. Test number four, the barrel roll test. Do a
barrel roll! Impressive, Star Fox. How impressive was this game for its time? Did it push the
boundaries of technology, gameplay, graphics, scale, or innovation? Yes to all of the above. This
game was revolutionary in many ways and brought a lot of things to the table, not only for the
Nintendo 64 and the Zelda franchise, but just gaming in general. If you didn’t borrow from Zelda

[29:30]

in some way, shape, or form in a game that was developed in the past two decades since this game
came out, I’d be very suspicious. I made a little list here for you as well with just some of the
stuff that they included here, which for the time was absolutely revolutionary. They had the
Z-targeting system, which, you know, obviously has to go through its paces now in the new game with
the way that they are changing things and bringing it up to a modern-day control scheme, but using a
Z-targeting system for 3D combat and interaction was brand new at the time,

[30:00]

and it was a big deal that they did it. And the Nintendo 64’s controller with the Z-trigger on it
was really a great way of deploying that. Content-sensitive action buttons, which Conker definitely
leaned into later on on the same console, but simplifying more complex controls by doing that based
on where you are and what you’re doing, that was new for this. The cinematic presentation and
storytelling on cartridge-based hardware, it wasn’t unheard of, but this game pushed it in ways that
had just not been done before. And the ambitious scale

[30:30]

and the interconnected lands, again, all done before in different capacities, but never pulled off
with quite this level of polish. They had a dynamic day and night cycle, NPCs that have different
schedules based off of how you encounter them, different items that appear at different times of
day, different enemies that behave differently different times of day. They had the whole time
travel thing that we talked about before as well, you know, with the adult and the child mechanics,
different move sets in each of these time zones as well, and the ability of transforming the world
based on which area you’re in.

[31:00]

It was just all just really impressive. Considering all this was optimized for a 32 megabyte
cartridge is just, it’s nuts. So, I mean, this category, we say how impressive was it for its time?
It was the definition of impressive for its time. And like I said, it seamlessly integrated so many
things, even the music into the core gameplay mechanics. We’re joking about how an Ocarina is a
made-up instrument, but just in gameplay and in the design of it all, it just, it was amazing what
it did. And it established foundational design conventions

[31:30]

for their dungeons in particular, but like future game design and level design was absolutely
impacted by this game. So, it just, pass. Underlined, highlighted, bold. Pass. I thought you were
going to say fail after all that. Yeah, you really threw me for a loop on that one. No, you’re
totally right though. And honestly, I’m looking at my notes here, practically some of the same
stuff, so I’m not, you know, at the risk of repeating too many things. It’s about as impressive as
it gets for the time period.

[32:00]

Not necessarily new to games or even Zelda. The hook shot, the hover boots, the iron boots, even
stuff like that. Being able to float in one spot, but you need to sink in another. Like, is cool.
It’s just a mechanic that you’ve seen it done now, but it was still pretty novel at the time. The
size and scale of the world. Being able to ride a horse wasn’t something that was done a whole lot
before this. Having to learn 12, I think there’s technically 13, ocarina songs to perform action and
creative use of real time and pre-rendered backgrounds

[32:30]

because there’s places where they are both factored in. Oh, that’s true. I forgot about that, yeah.
Yeah, like when you’re walking around on your way to the castle, there’s like sort of a pre-rendered
alley and I think even Link’s house is pre-rendered, but you get outside and some pretty cool stuff
with that. One of the first, if not the first game to do lock-on targeting, again, contact-sensitive
actions. I even put a shout-out to Birdie from Conker, so you got me on that one too. Sorry. Using
the ocarina as a tool is also pretty cool, having the ability to, even, which is neat when you play
with it more, being able to bend notes,

[33:00]

like even though you use just the core couple of buttons, there’s buttons you can pull triggers and
hit and move stuff around to make notes go higher and lower and add some wobble to them. I have no
doubt there’s people out there playing like Metallica solos and shit on YouTube on the ocarina
because they figured out how and it’s probably badass. Like, there’s a lot of that stuff. Real
quick, let me jump in on that. I don’t think that that’s a good thing. I hated that because it meant
that, you know, I couldn’t get lazy when I was holding my controller and if I like knocked the stick
or something like that when I was trying to input my music controls,

[33:30]

it would like warble. I would always get mad. Yeah, I was like, why is this in here? You don’t need
to do it, but I didn’t consider people playing Metallica on it, so I will respectfully withdraw
that. Yeah, years later, you got somebody, you know, knocking out the Welcome to the Jungle solo or
some shit or some, you know, Avenged Sevenfold just murdering this Sinister Gates solo on the
ocarina is killer, but yeah, it’s true though because it’s, you know, they could have stuck to the
five or six notes that you would do, but they added all this extra range where you can play almost
anything you want is awesome and then exactly,

[34:00]

you called it out, you beat me to it. I should have gone first on this one. At the time it released,
it was the largest N64 game up to that point at 32 megs, though, if you listened to previous
episodes, it was, you know, ultimately outdone by games like Resident Evil and Pokemon Stadium 2,
but there’s a lot to be impressed by and the question is, is it impressive? It absolutely is, so
it’s an easy, easy pass, one of the easiest we’ve probably had. Test number five, the joystick
gymnastics test. Yeah!

[34:30]

How well does this game play today? Are the controls and cameras still enjoyable or are they working
against the player? It’s not the greatest, but it did, as we just mentioned, bring about a lot of
innovations. Things like the Z-targeting was such a unique thing. They were already taking a very
well-established and really, really strong formula from previous Zelda games, you know, coming out
of A Link to the Past.

[35:00]

Being able to translate that all into 3D and make it usable and make sword fighting and using your
shield and all that stuff, it, you know, added a few things. They didn’t really have an easy button
to dedicate with the layout to jumping, so they just sort of did context-sensitive auto-jumping. I
am looking forward to the improvements on that in the remake, but I think it does a pretty good job.
And again, we just mentioned in the previous category, even just bringing in the music, making it
that you can play so many notes

[35:30]

and have so much variety on the ocarina alone. It’s really, really impressive. So, compared to some
of the modern comforts of today, it’s not the easiest thing, but it did revolutionize in some ways a
lot of what we have out there. Camera still works pretty well, just a one-tap, you know, button to
reset it and re-center it. Very, very effective. I think it’s a pass. It’s maybe a light pass for
me. It’s not just a slam dunk like some of these other categories, but I think it does a really good
job

[36:00]

in even going back and playing it now. I did not have a hard time adapting to it, which I can’t say
for every game we’ve played so far. Yeah, I do think that playing it again in a modern setting is
going to be very interesting. You make some good points. I mean, the controls haven’t aged all that
well, but I do think that the controls were done in a way that was definitely the right choice at
the time. It’s questionable why they didn’t add a jump button considering everything else is so
manual,

[36:30]

you know, loading up your bow and firing things and interacting with different elements. That’s all
done by button presses, yet jumping needs to be handled by just falling off a ledge in the right
direction. It is strange, but it’s one of these things that while it’s a little hard to wrap your
brain around it, I think that you kind of land on it very quickly and then it becomes part of the
puzzle design in a way, so it’s one of those limitations that just helps you. The fact that you can
only push a block forward and backwards, not side to side, makes the type of puzzles

[37:00]

that they make with blocks workable. So, I mean, that’s a very niche example, but I do think that
some of the limitations that were done were done in a way that helped the game grow into itself and
be more of a defined experience. The Z targeting and no jump button are the biggest part of that and
it does take some time to get used to, but I do think that in the end, I don’t punish it while
playing it in a modern day light. I do think others might, but I’m coming to this from someone who’s
played it before and I fully recognize

[37:30]

that this remake is going to redefine the game for a lot of people. This game is old man’s game at
this point and I think it deserves a modern audience and I’m glad that it’s going to get one and
from everything that I’ve read and seen, the game does a good job, the new version of the game does
a good job of kind of marrying the two, you know, a very modern day scenario with the old school
stipulations that made up the gameplay. So I think I’m positive about this overall. There were a
couple of just like

[38:00]

really weird design choices that weren’t necessarily control limitations that did make gameplay
difficult on the old joystick gymnastics. Some of the boss battles often involved you having to
juggle buttons and abilities that you had to pre-prep and link to your different buttons in a way
that would be really frustrating and stressful. The Bongo Bongo boss in the Shadow Temple for me
this time around, I don’t remember him being particularly difficult in the past, but I was screaming
at the screen this time around

[38:30]

and it was really, really fiddly and I got flummoxed quite a bit. It was just annoyingly stressful.
Eventually you figure it out and you get the rhythm down, but it doesn’t mean you don’t have to trek
through the fucking temple four or five times and go back and refill your stupid fairy bottles, but
you know, neither here nor there. And it’s weird too because, you know, there are games that are
known for having notoriously bad controls. That’s not something that comes up when people talk about
this game, but kind of like you’re mentioning the like changing stuff on the fly, like having to
change your inventory that happens in Breath of the Wild. Like it’s something

[39:00]

that has sort of even decades later still is kind of just like a definitively Zelda thing. Like we
look at it and it’s this weird inconvenience, but you do it and you still go, this game is awesome.
So like it’s something that they’ve sort of just leaned into. It’s a feature, not a bug. Almost kind
of thing where it is inconvenient and it kind of sucks, but everything else is so good that you’re
like, I don’t know, it’s just how the game works. Yeah, it’s like the inventory management on, I
don’t mean to keep bringing it back, but Resident Evil 2, right? You’ve got your weird suitcases and
the way you have to organize your objects in that.

[39:30]

That just becomes a way that Resident Evil handles inventory management. I think the same thing with
this game is customizable controls and equip the tools that you think you need allows you to explore
with a couple of things handy, but you still got a whole tool bag with you of stuff. So there are
interesting ways of how they went about it that I question. The fact that you have an opportunity to
save every time you toggle the menu on and off, which is kind of annoying when you’re switching your
boots in the water temple every five seconds. That’s just kind of annoying. But I would say the most
annoying thing

[40:00]

in the water temple is right before you fight the final boss, there is a ramp that you have to run
up with these spiky things that move back and forth, and there’s nothing to indicate that you’re
supposed to do anything out of the ordinary or special here, but you’re trying all your different
tools to try and get up this thing. And the trick is you just got to run and run at a certain angle
at a certain speed and get lucky. And there’s some things like that that just made it really
frustrating when playing it again this time around. But again, I don’t think that’s necessarily the
controls. I think that’s just dated gameplay. And as much as this

[40:30]

game gets praised, it didn’t come out yesterday. So we need to recognize that it is a snapshot of
time and it is reflective of when it came out. I do think that what it did for that time, it really
did stand out well. So when it comes to the joystick gymnastics in a modern day environment, I, as a
nostalgic player, I will give this game a pass. I do have to call out really quickly, anyone who
knows me knows that I absolutely love the art of games and I love indie

[41:00]

games as just a concept, games as art. And just, it’s funny that you mention it, again, not to bring
up Resident Evil, but it’s one of those things, the inventory management is so iconic. There’s a
game called Save Room where the entire game is, here’s your weird shaped inventory and the guns and
the bullets, put them in there. And it’s one of those things that, like you said, it’s a limitation
of the time, but people are making games that are like, this is the Zelda inventory management
puzzle game, because it seems like it should be frustrating,

[41:30]

but it still ends up being endearing by the time you look at it enough. So again, not to bring up
Resident Evil too many more times, but it is, you know, freshly something that we talked about not
long ago, but it is, it’s one of those things where sometimes it is so obtuse, but it becomes
something almost like Stockholm syndrome that it becomes such a part of the game that you just get
so ingrained and used to it that you’re like, this is actually kind of awesome that we did it this
way. So yeah, it’s just, it’s a weird thing to pass

[42:00]

this inconvenience, but it’s a pass because it still works so beautifully. Yeah, I’d agree with
that. And I think this actually leans back into the whole leveraging the Nintendo 64’s features too.
The C buttons worked really well for this, even though it’s a limitation. The idea of mapping the
controls to this weird Nintendo 64 controller, it was a cool thing for the time. Shout out to the
save room guy. If you’re listening, come be on the show. Test number six, the bum to the bass test.
How good is this

[42:30]

game’s audio? Does it have memorable music, iconic sound effects, or the kind of soundtrack that
sticks with you long after you put the controller down? Gerudo fucking Valley. That is all I have to
say. Koji Kondo, you are ridiculous pass. That alone could do it, but the soundtrack is full of so
many memorable tunes. The Kokiri Forest, The Lost Woods, Kakariko Village, hopefully I’m

[43:00]

saying these things right, Lon Lon Ranchers, a lot of weird words in there. The market theme, the
Hyrule Field theme, the windmill theme, and all the Ocarina tunes. There are so many pieces of this.
That shit is awesome, especially the windmill one. That one’s a banger. If I’m not mistaken, I think
I still have the CD soundtrack from Nintendo Power or something. I think I have Yoshi’s Story too,
which is Yoshi-shaped, which is kind of cool. That’s awesome. The music alone is worth it. It’s got
some really great sound effects as well.

[43:30]

If you listen to the hint from the last episode, this iconic yell from one of the Ganondorf battles,
the music is just unbelievable. I find myself, which is funny, so my daughter’s 14, and she’ll be
scrolling on Instagram, and music, they have all these, some of it’s become like a meme. She’ll be
scrolling through and I’ll go, that’s from Zelda, what the heck? And it’s some tune from Ocarina
that someone’s using as background music in some meme video, and she goes, oh yeah, yeah, that’s all
over the place now. And I’m like, it’s been 30 years.

[44:00]

That’s awesome that this music is that iconic, but for me, again, I love the art of video games, and
Gerudo Valley was one of the first songs that I ever heard where I went, holy crap, this is art.
This is, the arrangement of it is just unbelievable. The first time I heard that, that level of
cinematic music in a game, there’s always been iconic music, but that for me just took it to an
entirely new level, and it changed the whole way I thought about games. So it’s, I don’t think there
will ever be a more

[44:30]

emphatic pass on any category, probably, than this one for me, because it is just such a huge one
for me. That’s awesome. Yeah, no, Koji Kondo is a genius. I agree with you there 100%. I’m actually,
I have tickets to go see the concert tour, the orchestral tour that’s going around the world when it
gets to Virginia next year. I’m very excited about that. I don’t do that. I don’t go see orchestral
anything. I’m not that sophisticated, but I will be there and I’ll probably be

[45:00]

crying. So I am all in on giving this a pass as well. I think the soundtrack is phenomenal. I think
it stands the test of time. Ha! And I think it’s just amazing. You didn’t mention it when you were
going through the different iconic tracks, but one of the ones that always stood out to me was the
Forest Temple and that weird reverse MIDI chanting of sorts that’s in the game. I don’t even know
how to describe it, but it instantly takes me to that temple. And it’s just amazing.

[45:30]

Just the arrangements and the experimentation and just the adept deployment of the music in this
game in various different directions that it goes is just great. And then sound design is great as
well. All of the sword clashes and clangs and the items that you use, your bow being drawn, the
horse hooves, it all sounds terrific. You can tell which direction Epona is coming from based on the
sound. That’s a big deal. And it’s just absolutely fantastic. And of course, our voiceless
protagonist with his as he as he jumps

[46:00]

from platforms and gets kicked off of things. Those are those have all become ingrained in every
gamer’s mind at this point as well and replicated largely in every Zelda game subsequently. So, yep,
pass, pass, pass. And even just a couple of very tiny things, like even though it’s incredibly
annoying now, the hate listen that you hear from Navi and the very early on, like we mentioned, the
unique usage of the rumble feature when you’re trying to get out of the Lost Woods. And if you run

[46:30]

and the music fades, then it means that you’re going the wrong direction and you’re going to get
kicked back out. But if you go somewhere and the music continues at the normal volume, it means that
you can also, you know, skirt along the wall and see if the if it fades to black or if it fades into
something new. But even just like little audio cues like that, it’s such an innovative use of music
at the time. It’s just so cool. So it’s it’s just it’s hard to say anything negative about it. And
it makes a lot of sense. I mean, considering that the game is

[47:00]

tied around a musical instrument, you’d think that they’d have their shit together when it comes to
music. And it’s just great to report that they absolutely did. And yeah, I think this is one of the
best game soundtracks that’s ever come out in my lifetime. And it is going to be hard to topple
this. One day they’re going to make a futuristic one and it’s going to be like Zelda, the theremin
of destiny. Yeah. It’s going to be something weird where you’re traveling through, you know,

[47:30]

3D space and time using another relatively unknown instrument, the theremin. Or what’s what’s the
name of that? Like it’s a it’s a plastic instrument that looks like a musical note and you squeeze
the bottom of it and it’s got a face and it makes like a weird warble like that thing. Oh, yeah. I
don’t know what it’s called, but Legend of Zelda, that thing of time. Yeah, those things are
awesome. The the automaton. That’s what it’s called. There’s some other thing, too. There’s the
thing called like the water, the water phone. They use it in like scary movies. It’s it makes

[48:00]

very strange. They call it the water phone or the ocean harp, and it makes like weird, like spooky
sounds. Otomatone of Shadow, theremin of the arcane. None of this probably has to be in the episode.
Test number seven, the smash invite test. Will this battler live up to expectations? Does this game
have characters, worlds, music, or ideas worthy of a place in Super Smash Brothers? So it’s already
half

[48:30]

the smash roster, so I think it’s going to continue to grow as the franchise does. I don’t think
there’s really any need for additional characters from this game to be added. I think we’re pretty
well represented as is, so I’m going to go pass on this. Yeah, it is. Like you just said, we’ve got
Link, we have Young Link, we have Toon Link, Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf, all playable in one game or
another, not necessarily Ultimate, but in some game in the franchise.

[49:00]

Ganon is a boss in Ultimate. There’s tons of music, tons of items. There’s Mii customizations if
you’re doing a custom character. There are assist trophies. This is crazy. The NES versions of the
first two games are masterpiece game trials on the Wii and Wii U. There’s parts where you can go
back and play essentially like a historic version of those games. You can only play for like five
minutes or something, but the entirety of the first two Zelda games from the NES are literally in
Smash on the Wii and Wii U. Huh, I didn’t know

[49:30]

that. Yeah, it’s crazy. There’s various enemies in Smash Run mode on the 3DS, which is kind of like
a, I think like a horde mode. Yeah. They’re not all from Ocarina specifically, but quite a few are.
Link also was in Soul Calibur 2 on the GameCube. So technically this game also passes the Soul
Calibur invite test, which is not a thing. So that’s a pass. He’s in elite company with Kihachi and
Spawn who came out for the PlayStation and the Xbox versions of that game.

[50:00]

I did buy all three of them and still have all three of them, but the GameCube one was the only one
that really got the love because obvious reasons. Wasn’t like Darth Vader in one of them too or
something too? That was a Soul Calibur 4, I want to say. It was Darth Vader, Starkiller, and Yoda,
but maybe Starkiller was actually in a different one. There’s been a couple of Star Wars noms in
there actually, yeah. Okay, but I’m not misremembering that. Okay, that’s good. Nope, nope. Yeah, so
anyway, pass. Soul Calibur and Smashing by test.

[50:30]

Does that make it even more points? Does that mean it gets 10 extra points? Yeah, I think you got to
give it 20 points of this category. All right, perfect. Well, we’ll do the math in a minute and see
if that counts. I don’t think it’s hurting for points, but you know, we’ll keep that in our back
pocket if we need to be nice. Yeah, it’s doing pretty well so far. Test number eight, the 101% test.
Oh, they are running up the score. Is this game worth fully completing? Are the extra challenges,
collectibles,

[51:00]

and secrets worth the effort? Yeah, so times are self-reported by players, but according to
howlongtobeat.com, the main story takes about 27 hours and full completion is like 37. So you don’t
have to spend, you know, it’s actually pretty interesting to watch this go up over time as there’s
sort of been this price to value proposition with a lot of games. You’re really enjoying yourself.
37 hours is not a lot of time. To put that in perspective, Breath of the Wild’s main

[51:30]

storyline, just without the extras, is reported, self-reported by most players around 50 hours with
full completion at 190. And I want to say Tears of the Kingdom was like 250 or something crazy like
that. So it is possible to finish the game without doing absolutely everything. But I don’t know
that you would be disappointed if you took the extra time to do it, even without achievements and
special unlocks and stuff like that. You can play plenty of games for 37 hours and be

[52:00]

enjoyable. And it is certainly a very small investment compared to something in the two or three
hundred hour range. So I’d say it’s a pretty safe task. Yeah, I’d say in this replay that I did,
that’s that lines up with about my time. I think I spent about 40 hours to get everything. And yeah,
the first time I beat it through, I didn’t get everything. I don’t think I got the ice arrows. I
definitely didn’t get all of the the the heart pieces or all of the golden spiders. So but yeah,
stuff like the gold skulltulas and

[52:30]

the skulltulas. Sorry, I’ll never get that right. It’s such a weird word. It looks good when
written. Just weird to say all that heart pieces, all of them. You don’t need them all, but it does
allow you to continue to keep playing and get more out of the game. You know, hey, before I go and
fight the final boss and this game is very generous about giving you the heads up of like, hey, you
know, if you go in here, this is the final thing. You can really go back and milk everything out of
the game before you want to jump in, which comes in handy because this game is one of those ones
that has the old

[53:00]

school hard lock ending screen where you get to the end and it’s a still image and it does not do
anything. And it was a loop indefinitely until you turn off the cartridge, just like it did with the
old Super Mario World cartridge there. Fun fact, if you did learn the Scarecrow song, your Scarecrow
song will play in different instrumentation if you leave it sitting there for long enough, which I
did because I was just waiting for something to happen and I didn’t remember that nothing happened.
But yeah, so I mean, there are things in there that you don’t need to get, but there are stuff that
add to the value.

[53:30]

There’s the happy mask shop missions that let you get extra masks and the big Goron sword.
Ultimately, that gets you the best sword in the game and the Mask of Truth, which you are then able
to talk to all those weird gossip stones, which do give you some pretty cool lore and some extra
information about the game. Some of them are just nonsense, but there’s quite a bit, quite a bit in
the end game for this to do. And optional side stuff, like you do not need the ice arrows in any
way,

[54:00]

shape or form, but you can get them and there’s a whole sort of side quest to get them. I actually
had, and this is a bit of an aside, but I had a complex because I locked myself out of being able to
get the ice arrows. I’ve looked it up since and apparently I didn’t, but looking through all of the
players guides and the information that was available on my AOL account or whatever the hell I was
using to get my Zelda fix back in the day. IGN64.com. Probably, probably. Yeah, so I actually was
able to not have enough silver keys in order to

[54:30]

get to the goal, to get to the chest that had the ice arrows. So that gave me a bit of a complex. So
when I replayed the game again, that was extremely directed how I went through all those silver key
doors in order to get those damn arrows. But yeah, like I said, the end game, it’s got a really
good, it’s just end game. It’s a narrative game, so its ending is rewarding from a story
perspective. I did think it was weird playing it this time around. Have you, you have beaten

[55:00]

it, right? So you’ve played it all the way through? Yes. Yep. Okay. So spoilers for anyone who’s
listening who hasn’t played it originally and might be playing the new one right now, but I just
want to talk about the ending right now. It may change in the new version, so this may be completely
moot. But you learn at the very beginning of the game that the Kokori kids die if they leave the
forest because they don’t have the protection of the great Deku tree and that’s why you have to stay
there. Now, either that was a lie or they just forgot that by the time they got to the ending
because the ending

[55:30]

in this game has a fun cinematic where it shows all of the townsfolk and all the NPCs just having a
barbecue in the middle of Hyrule field and those little Kokori shits are running around playing
games. They’re actually flipped up upside down the music playing guy from inside the windmill.
They’re messing with that guy. So apparently they don’t die if they leave the forest or maybe
they’re able to just leave for a quick barbecue and then they have to go back. I’m not sure how that
works. I mean, barbecue, if it’s good, you can get just about anybody’s attention with that, you
know? Life-sustaining ribs.

[56:00]

It keeps them going. Maybe, I don’t know, maybe because you’ve completed this story, you get them
out. Maybe you liberate them in some way. Just another quick aside on the Sculptula things. I think,
and this is not how time works, but I am known for making some dumb, you know, weird stretch of a
joke on just about every episode. We, of course, had Killapillas, which were the dangerous
caterpillars in Buck Bumble. Yeah. And Buck Bumble came out like a week before Ocarina, so I can
only

[56:30]

imagine that it was somebody played Buck Bumble at Nintendo EAD and went, we’ve got to name this. We
have seconds to get this into the final version of the game so it can ship. And so that’s the only
reason I can think of that it would be. Well, there are actually, it’s funny you mentioned that, a
couple of changes that they did make to the game, which we can get into a little bit later on. Oh,
yeah. Before the game shipped, there are multiple versions of this game, so we can, we’ll delve into

[57:00]

that later. I’ve got a couple of comments on that that I had lined up for, for, for another
category. But, yeah, the other thing I wanted to mention about the ending to this game is I don’t
know if I really clocked it when I was younger, but you awaken certain characters as sages and then
these sages help you in the final battle. But once you’ve awakened them as a sage, these characters
never interact with anybody in the living world. Are they dead? Or have they passed on? Oh, those
are force ghosts, man.

[57:30]

This is Star Wars. Yeah. I mean, if so, like, because, I mean, so one of the, um, one of the sages
is the, uh, the princess of the Zoras, and then during the, the cookout, her dad is just sitting
there chilling by himself. I’m sure he’d love to spend some time with his daughter, but, uh, she
doesn’t, she doesn’t make an appearance. And then they all fly across the sky as stars. And then
they materialize on death mountain, looking down below and they’re all hanging out together. A group
of people that never knew each other prior. So, I mean, maybe it’s because there’s a limited pool
and you can only hang out with your dead sage

[58:00]

friends or force ghost buddies. I don’t know. Yeah. That’s, that’s 100%. Ewoks are having a party at
the end of return of the Jedi. And the, the force ghosts all came back to life because they had died
previously. That’s Yoda and Anakin. Like it’s that that’s exactly what little Kikori kids are
playing on a Deku scrub heads like drums, like little Ewoks. Yeah, they’re the Ewoks and they’re
having a barbecue and the force ghost show up because they’re sages. I knew I liked this game for a
reason. I don’t know if that’s true.

[58:30]

I did not consult Shigeru Miyamoto for his opinions on that and how they came to that conclusion,
but I’m pretty sure that’s got to be correct. Pass. I don’t even know what test we’re on anymore.
Yep. Agreed. Agreed. This game, this game gets a pass. But yeah, I mean, I just, I don’t want to
keep harping on this ending, but like, I don’t know if I necessarily remember the ending or if I
really like experienced it the same way that I do now. So yeah, the, the, the, the sages, the Kikori

[59:00]

kids also like Navi just like bounces. Like you come back into the temple of time and she just flies
out through a window. There’s no like, Hey, listen, I’m gonna leave. It’s just, she fucking flies
away and that’s it. Is it because her job is done? Sure. But like, you’d think that she’d say like
deuces. She doesn’t say anything just floats away. And it’s like, well, why? So. That’s one of those
super weird endings. It’s like fight club or, uh, you know, the, the sixth sense where the, and you
go, the whole time that’s what happened.

[59:30]

Tyler Durden was a ghost the whole time is what you’re saying. Exactly. That’s as far as I remember
it. That’s, that’s for sure how it happened. Yeah. And you, and like at the very end, you see young
link approaching Zelda looking through the window, which is how he first met her. Does that mean
that she was looking through the window at nobody because Ganondorf has been defeated in all
scenarios or is it just a case of link now has to go back and do the whole thing again? I think
actually, if you go into all the complicated timeline and lores, that might be the branching point
that like one

[01:00:00]

storyline leads to breath of the wild and the other one leads to wind wager or whatever. I know I’m
saying that out of order. So please don’t get mad at me, Zelda enthusiasts. But yeah, just when I
was playing, I was like, I didn’t get more of it than I did. And I think when I was playing it at
14, I was just happy that I solved all of the things and all the bad guys were dead. But can we just
also really quick young link meets Zelda. Anakin meets Amidala and they’re like linked

[01:00:30]

later when he gets older. I’m pretty sure that we just figured out that Ocarina of Time and episode
one are the same thing. well, I am a big Star Wars fan, so I guess yeah, maybe that’s why I do love
this game so much. Star Wars and Zelda much more closely linked than I think I ever realized until
right now. That means that Link is going to turn evil at some point. Not like Dark Link. He’s going
to be like legit like Darth Link. Not Dark, but Darth. He’s going to be a whole different guy. I
look forward to it. I’ll play that game. That’d be badass. And then he gets an invite to Soul
Calibur, but as the bad guy this

[01:01:00]

time. Yeah, I see. That’s right. Because Darth Vader, Soul Calibur, it’s all one game. There is one
game that sprawls across the entire industry. Every video game is a sequel to every other video
game. That’s got to be what it is. The Legend of Zelda Ocarina Expanded Universe. Vice City. Test
number nine, Wario’s Wallet. Oh my god! Is this game worth the price of admission today? If you’re
spending modern collector money, are you

[01:01:30]

getting your money’s worth? So according to pricecharting.com, the loose price for this one is
$51.33 and complete in the box with the manual, you’re looking at $190.77. So that’s a pricey one.
There are a lot of fakes of this game and there’s a lot of interest now with the new re-release, so
the prices are going up a little bit more than normal. For a clean eBay cart, I saw a fair few in
the $40 to $50 range for the gray ones, but you’re at $180 plus if you want a

[01:02:00]

gold one. So, honestly, in my opinion, it doesn’t really matter the cost. If you are a Nintendo 64
collector and you do not have this game, then I would argue that you do not have a complete Nintendo
64 collection. This is must-own in whatever format you can get it, as a game in general, and if you
want the core experience of this game and as a Nintendo 64 collection, you need this game. So, I
mean, mine, I have the original gold

[01:02:30]

one. I got it on day one. I have the misspellings on the box, where I did have misspelling on the
box. That thing has long since passed on to the great cardboard heaven in the sky. But the gold
plastic cart is the one that actually had the original pressing of the game in it, which had some
stereotypical prayer chants that were removed from the fire temple. Ganondorf bleeds red blood
instead of green blood, and that was changed out. And some of the Gerudo symbols and a couple of

[01:03:00]

misspellings in the game and everything like that have been swapped out. So all that said, mine was
worth every rupee because I’ve got the original version of this game, and I’m very happy to have
that as someone that is attempting to archive and collect all the Nintendo 64 games. So this game
gets a pass for me, despite the fact that I fully recognize that this is a very high barrier to
entry as far as the price points. I just think that this game commands a higher price, and I think
as a game, as far as the quality, it’s deserved.

[01:03:30]

There are some games on this console that cost an absolute fortune, and they are shit. But it’s just
because they were hard to get, or very limited pressings, or only available in certain retail
scenarios, that they command that price. This game deserves its price for all the right reasons. And
it’s going up right now because more people can play it with the M64 and the analog 3D, and more
people want to play it because the brand spanking new version just got remade. And you don’t remake
games unless they deserve it. Well, most people don’t

[01:04:00]

remake games if you don’t deserve it. And this game just deserves it on all fronts. So I would say
that this absolutely gets a pass. Yeah, for sure. And to being on games that got remade that didn’t
need it, that game PO’d, if you remember that, just genuinely just in garbage, dog shit FPS, got
remade not that long ago, and I played it, and it is so bad. But to your point, yeah, with this
game, it is so, so good. A couple of quick asides there, too, to what you were mentioning, that
there are multiple versions of this game. There’s a version 1.0, 1.1,

[01:04:30]

and 1.2. There was a crescent moon and star symbol that was used to represent the Gerudo. And there
was a part, there were some lyrics, there were like some chanting in the fire temple that were both
representative of Islam. And Nintendo, at the time, did not permit religious imagery or language in
its games, not in any form. It wasn’t that they were preferential to one or the other. And so they
ended up removing it because they didn’t realize it had gotten left in. And like you mentioned, the
red blood is more graphic. We mentioned that with

[01:05:00]

Resident Evil as well. It’s a tiny bit better if it’s a different color. But what was interesting
was that the build dates of these games were October 21st, October 26th, and November 12th. Every
version of the game was completed before it ever went on a shelf, but they had already started
making the games. And so there were there are pressings of all three versions, even though the game
had never even showed up in a store and they were already on version three. They were already on
version one point two because they caught it and made adjustments so quick. So it’s actually kind of
an

[01:05:30]

interesting one to seek out. I think that’s fascinating. I will add that because of the way that
these games are pressed and the the shipping methods and everything like that, just because there
were three versions that came out before the release date, it doesn’t mean that all three were
available at launch. And I also did want to add that the Gerudo symbols remained in all of the
Nintendo 64 versions of this game. They weren’t replaced, but they were when the game got ported to
other consoles. And so that did remain. It’s actually even a major texture on the mirror shield that
you get.

[01:06:00]

And that is in the reflections and everything like that. That that’s all remained in the game. I
think that was too much of it to swap out. But the same symbol appears on a lot of other puzzles and
buttons and trap doors and things like that throughout the temples. Some of them that aren’t even
related to the Gerudo, to be honest with you, but they didn’t get swapped out until the game
actually was ported to other consoles. So the Nintendo 64 versions, while there were multiple
versions, that one part wasn’t one of the things that was changed out. But yeah, the blood was

[01:06:30]

changed in order to try and keep its E for everybody rating. And while obviously you’re fighting
with swords, no one’s bleeding. But in the final cutscene, when Ganondorf breathes his final breath,
he does glob up a whole bunch of blood. So now he globs up a whole bunch of green bile. You’re safe,
kids. You’re good. Yeah, he just got the flu or whatever. It was just, you know, how you get
congested. So now I need to actually talk about the Wario’s wallet, my version of that. Yeah. So it
is available, of course, in the original form. It is also available

[01:07:00]

Nintendo Switch Online expansion pack, which is as of this recording, $50 a year in the US. The 2011
3DS remake, which is like $35 or $40. So it’s, you know, still a complete copy of the game.
Reasonably priced. Loose game cards cost a little bit less, but usually people held onto those
cases. So usually get a complete version on the on the 3DS. And of course, there is the 2026 full
remake for the Switch 2, which is expected to retail at $70 available physically and digitally.

[01:07:30]

So it’s not the cheapest game. There are cheaper ways to play it if you just want to have the
experience. But if you’re trying to build like Jamie said, even a partial set of especially
essential in 64 games, it really is something you’re not likely to pass on. And it’s not the most
expensive game. If you are looking for the full collection, you will ultimately be most pissed at
Super Bowling and how dumb it is and how expensive it is. But other than that, Ocarina, though not
the

[01:08:00]

cheapest, probably worth it because it is very, very good. So it’s a pass. This game is doing well
on the points. I don’t think you need to give them those extra ones. Yeah, I’ll probably just keep
it within the normal range. All right. Final test. Test number 10. The nostalgia goggles test. Does
this game genuinely hold

[01:08:30]

up today or is its reputation being carried by nostalgia? This is one where I think I see the
argument for people that don’t have nostalgia for this game. I think that people who played this
game have nostalgia for it and that’s all it needs. But the game does merit the love that it gets
now, even if it does need to be remade in order to be experienced the right way by a newer audience.
I played this game top to bottom, like I said, in prep

[01:09:00]

for this episode to be able to answer this question honestly. And I find that people’s memories of
this game have probably bled into subsequent games in the series that were influenced or lifted
things like we mentioned from Ocarina of Time that weren’t necessarily part of their those games.
So, you know, items and dungeons and stuff like that. There are subsequent versions of similar like
there’s a water temple in a couple of other games after this one. And that might dilute some of the
things the

[01:09:30]

players had in their minds about this water temple, which is notoriously difficult. Well, not
necessarily difficult, but convoluted and annoying. And, you know, while we all have memories of
that, we also have memories of every other water temple that has come since that and how that all
affects and kind of bleeds into that memory. So the game weirdly transcends itself and bleeds into
other games influences. And I think that the fact that that happens means that this has to be a
pass. And I recognize that I am saying

[01:10:00]

this very biasedly because of how I came to this game and my fondness for this game. But I’m trying
to divorce myself in that thinking. And I really do think that this game does hold up today. It’s
about to get put to shame by a game that comes along and does it in 2026. But I do think that
there’s a reason that game is being made. And that is because this game kicks ass. And I’m saying
that now, what is it, 26 years after the original one came out.

[01:10:30]

So I say this is a pass. Yeah. And, you know, you mentioned that the people having nostalgia for it
because they played it and I’m not necessarily one of those people, right? I was around my friend
played it, but I didn’t have the experience. I had the sort of secondhand being around it, but I
still it still stuck out to me. The music still stuck with me. There’s a lot that really still
resonated with me and was extremely memorable. And so going back and playing it later because I did
not play it right there in the

[01:11:00]

moment, it still held up. And to this day, it is still the highest rated game of all time on
Metacritic. And when GameRankings.com shut down in 2019, it was 0.1% behind Mario Galaxy. And it was
the second highest game of all time on there. And it’s Mario Galaxy is pretty well considered to be
also a very, very good game. So the consensus seems to be among people that tabulated those reviews
and people who

[01:11:30]

look back on those reviews that it is deserving of those accolades. It’s been surpassed in terms of
scale and visuals, as you hinted at. And but it can’t be overstated how impressive it was at the
time. It’s still very competent and enjoyable. Now I played it just to further date this. We usually
try not to make the games overly dated, but we just got hit by a hurricane in my part of Florida and
I was without power for five days. So I played this on my or six days. I played this on my AYN Thor
in an emulated version, which is like a handheld DS knockoff.

[01:12:00]

And it played just as great there as it played on my 3DS because I have that version as it played on
my M64 because I have the N64 version and I kept having to jump around and start the game over
because I kept getting cut off and not having electricity or not having a console or whatever it
was. And it was still pretty enjoyable on every one of those, even though I was starting over and
doing the same nitpicky stuff, you know, the very beginning. I saw a good time every time and it is
very competent, very enjoyable game to this day. And I honestly can’t wait

[01:12:30]

to play the modernized version with the enhanced visuals and sound and all that. And I’m sure there
will be things I miss from the original, but I think it’s going to be great. So it’s hard to see
many reasons that the 2026 remake won’t also receive a great deal of praise. And of course, that
remake wouldn’t have even been considered if there wasn’t such a love for the original and it is
because of how good that game is and how genuinely strong

[01:13:00]

of an experience it is regardless of memories and nostalgia. So it’s got to be a pass. Well, with
that, we can look at the score and we don’t need to count up anything because this game got a pass
from both of us in absolutely every category and has a perfect 100. Congratulations! So, yeah, I
don’t know that this is going to happen very often. Obviously, there are a

[01:13:30]

number of games that are very good and there are a number of games that are certainly middle of the
road or worse, but it is going to be pretty tough to beat a 100. But I think if you talk to most
people, you’re probably going to get a lot of people that are likely to agree that it should score
very, very high. And it did. Yeah, I mean, this test is designed to kind of look back at a game and
find the good in a game and point out its foibles. And there are some foibles in this game, but
there’s so much good.

[01:14:00]

And yeah, I think this is going to be as close as you can get to a perfect gaming experience on the
Nintendo 64. And that’s what this podcast is all about. So I’m not surprised to see this score at
all, but it does make me happy to see that we got there. And I think we got there organically. Yeah,
I don’t I don’t think many people would disagree with that. And, you know, even right there with
hundreds, thousands of reviews on Metacritic and in game rankings, this is not something that is
unique to us. This is industry wide, not even just a legendary

[01:14:30]

N64 game, a legendary video game in general. So I don’t think anyone is surprised at this. Hi,
everyone who listened to this to know this is where we were going to end up. You’re welcome. You
knew we would end up here. And I think we largely did too, even though we do not really discuss most
of this before we start recording. Yeah. So what we would normally do here is if a game didn’t quite
make it past the 64 point mark, we would kind of armchair engineer and see what could it do to, you
know, get past that line. Obviously, this game doesn’t

[01:15:00]

need our advice in any way, shape or form. What we’ll do this time is talk about how we can make it
worse. Change everything. Make it all bad. Yeah. I don’t know. More iron boot puzzles. Yeah. Only
iron boots. Everything is the ocarina, but with the bins, you have to get all the notes. Perfect.
You got to hit all the extra little buttons and much, much more Navi as far as interruptions go. I
think that’ll really solidify it. Perfect. Yes. Now, I mean, I don’t want to get too hole pokey with
this

[01:15:30]

because in all honesty, the answer is because of video games. But one of the things that really
struck me when I was playing it, even back in the day, but now more than ever, is so Link was a kid
and then he pulls the sword out. And because he wasn’t ready to take on the evil, he was kept in
sort of like a stasis for seven years. Yeah. He was just sort of hanging out in sort of suspended
state here, completely unconscious because he had to then get everything explained

[01:16:00]

to him when he unfroze from carbonite seven years later. But that creepy old man, Sage, Rauru.
Rauru, I don’t know how to pronounce it. He’s the guy who kind of hits him with all the exposition
at the end when he wakes up and lets him know that, oh, I’ve kept you frozen in this time and now
you’re ready to go on. At some point while he was, you know, sitting there suspended, Rauru, Rauru,
Rauru, Rauru, decided, you know what, this unconscious little boy needs a wardrobe update.

[01:16:30]

And he goes ahead and gives him some tights. And then at one point, I guess he was looking at his
elf ears and say, you know what, I’m going to pierce this guy’s ears. He needs some, some stylish
earrings when he, when he comes out of stasis here. So I’m just going to, yep, yep. Okay, good,
good. Oh, I can’t wait for him to, uh, to wake up and find out about his destiny. It’s just, it’s,
you know, obviously the, the scenario is, is where you have an adult Link and a young Link in those
two different character models and we just switch between them. But some of the choices I think are
going to be really evident in this remake because

[01:17:00]

now you’ve got things like, instead of he just wears green, it’s, his outfit is made to look like
it’s stitched together by Kokori, um, you know, uh, in, in, in the forest and using, um, leaves and
things like that to make the green tunic. And I assume, I don’t know if I’ve seen pictures of them,
but I assume that the, um, the red tunic and then the blue tunic have other symbolic Zora and Goron
elements to them. So I think just like little things like that, now that we’re going into like a
more detailed environment and, and a

[01:17:30]

modern day take on these things, some of the design choices are going to be a little bit more
noticeably video gamey, um, and when, when we’re playing it through and, uh, yeah, that Rauru, Rauru
guy is, um, a lot of people think that he is the embodiment of the owl or the owl is him, uh, and he
only appears in the past or something like that. I don’t know if you clocked any of that, but I
wasn’t able to make any connection to that when I was playing it through this time. So, um, I guess
maybe one of

[01:18:00]

the things that I’m hoping for in the new game is that they either run with some of these theories
and flesh out some of these things that are just sort of assumed or alluded to, or completely just
sidestep them and lean into, well, it’s a video game deal with it. And I’m, I’m curious to see how
they go with it. Yeah, I do. I think the, the detailed part is going to be really cool. I think
we’re in a level now where we have detail on that kind of stuff. And I think it will be very cool.
Like you said, it’s not

[01:18:30]

just, well, he’s, he’s young, he’s old and you know, it’s the nineties. So he’s got to have, you
know, earrings like Justin Timberlake, you know, whatever, but like it’s, um, like he’s in a boy
band, but I think it will be cool. Like you said, to have those sort of unique styles. This comes
from this portion of Hyrule from this, you know, this faction or this group. And so it’s kind of got
those, those small little parts of character. I’m really like eager to see that amount of stuff
brought to life. Cause if, you know, if it’s anything like, and it’s certainly going to be more than
likely the star Fox

[01:19:00]

remake is just stunning. And I feel like this is going to be right up there as being just a really,
really incredible looking game. And I think it’s, it’s going to be great to see that brought to
enhance an already very, very good game and take it to an even more impressive level. And of course
there’s going to be some, some nostalgia and some, you know, some, a little bit of a grasping on to,
I liked it how it was, I’m sure for some people, but

[01:19:30]

a lot of these remakes have been very faithful and very competent that I’m not saying I would never
go back and play something like star Fox 64, but the remake did a very good job of carrying on that
legacy. And I feel like this is going to too. Yeah, I think so. And not to make this episode all
about the game that this, you know, is coming out or has just come out and star Wars, yeah, and star
Wars, but you know, looking back at the Nintendo 64 version of this game and then leaning now

[01:20:00]

into our Lobo learning section, I think there’s quite a bit that we can learn from this game in
retros. So in this segment, we take a look at today’s game through the eyes of an indie developer me
or an aspiring indie developer. I should say, uh, what lessons can we learn from a decades later?
What ideas are worth borrowing? What mistakes should be avoided? What made this game work and how
might those same principles apply to modern games in development? Uh, Lobo learnings is brought to
you by Lobo destroyer, which is our own Nintendo 64 inspired platforming and adventure that’s
currently in

[01:20:30]

development. Uh, if you’re enjoying the show and you’d like to learn a little bit more about another
game that we’re working on, if you could visit us over at lobodestroyo.com that’s L O B O D E S T R
O Y O.com. Uh, you can check it out and, uh, join our discord and follow along. And, uh, all of
those links and, uh, long winded URLs will be in the, uh, show notes. So, uh, yeah, obviously we
already touched on it. So many games have taken a lot from this game, uh, in their development, in
their design

[01:21:00]

philosophy. Um, just there’s so much to learn from it and it has been replicated in many, in many
different games, completely unrelated categories as well. But I think one of the core things that
this game does really well, it can be applied to almost any game in development is that they make
the player aware of a task or activity that they need to do before you can actually execute it. So
you encourage them to come back and explore, which is a big part of that kind of Metroidvania logic
that has been applied in many different categories.

[01:21:30]

Again, as we mentioned, inversely teaching the player a new mechanic and then enforcing how you use
it right afterwards. So in Lobo, we do this where once you, uh, defeat a boss, you get a new mask
ability, very similar to Mega Man and those, um, those new abilities that you gain after defeating a
boss, um, we have it so that you essentially have to use them in order to get out of the area in
which you obtain the map. And, uh, that’s something that Zelda uses with these temples, right? You
need an item to get into the temple and you start using that item in the early stages

[01:22:00]

of the temple, but then it becomes evident there are other things you need to do. And then during
the course of the exploration, you get the new item, uh, whether it be boots or a bow and arrow or a
slingshot or a boomer. Orang or, or what have you. And then the rest of the temple relies on you
learning how to use that new ability or the abilities that come with that item. And then ultimately
the boss is a complete test of your mastery of that, uh, item and the abilities that go along with
it. Zelda does both of these things with the, with the key items in their temples.

[01:22:30]

And, um, I think that that’s phenomenal. So it’s just, it’s just smart design and it’s, it’s a good
enough idea that everybody steals it, including myself. Yeah. It’s one of those things that Zelda
has always done exceedingly well. When you look at things like a link to the past on the super
Nintendo, where they have like the hook shot thing and you need it to get to that certain area, but
then it also factors into you need it to beat the boss. And then ultimately you get the moon pearl,
I think it’s called where you can go between the light and the dark world. And it, you know, it’s,
it

[01:23:00]

has hints that it’s there when you finally get it, you use it like crazy to go between different
stuff, solve puzzles. And they’ve always done a really good job of that. And they do, they just take
it to another level here where it’s, you, you have this thing now and it’s, it took it to an even
higher degree than some of those games. Now you’ve got the different tunics, you’ve got the
different boots and stuff like that. And they come in so many different places and it’s just
awesome, you know, and it works so well. And like you said, a lot of games have, have taken
inspiration from that logo included because it’s so

[01:23:30]

cool. And when you can execute it and it really works well, it’s just a really great feeling. And it
just kind of adds that extra immersion. And sometimes when you, that it’s something you’re kind of
hitting a wall and you’re not sure what to do and you finally nail it, you go, man, I feel, I feel
like a genius. I feel so, so cool that I figured that out. Yeah, that’s true. And so it’s, it’s cool
that they did it. It’s cool that it’s worked so well and that a lot of people take inspiration from
it. And it’s anytime you see it, it’s just always, it’s always a cool addition.

[01:24:00]

Yeah, that’s a good point. I really do like the fact that it’s, it’s rewarding and it makes you feel
accomplished for being able to, to learn what it was and think along the lines that they want you
to. And this game has that in spades. So yeah, fantastic game. Lots to learn from it. And I think
that we are going to be seeing the learnings from this game for many, many years to come. Go buy the
remake promo code. We don’t have a promo code. Cartridge Archive was created by Jamie Guy and is
produced and hosted by Jamie Guy and Adam Jones. Our music is by the

[01:24:30]

mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. Visit the cartridge archive dot com for more information or join
our discord. You can find links to both of those at tap to add dot me slash TCA pod. That’s tap the
number to add dot me slash TCA pod. You’ll find that and all other links in the show notes. More
episodes of the cartridge archive are available wherever you get your podcasts. And as always,
thanks for listening.

[01:25:00]

All right. Thanksgiving. Big day of food, hanging out with the family, usually some pretty good
football games on. Let’s take a look and see who’s playing today. This one is underway. I tried to
see if Jamie wanted to watch football, but he’s all like, oh, it’s not real football. I’m from
England or whatever.

[01:25:30]

Rose downfield wide open. Oh, did he take a vicious hit? What? Is that absolutely necessary? Oh,
very unsportsmanlike conduct. Oh, that’s brutal. It’s a massacre. What the heck is he doing?
Decapitated him. That was uncalled for. Maybe football was a bad idea.